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(Ted) Ok let's get started. Does anyone have an opening
remark? ga
(DBC) Yes, I just saw a piece on CNN news about the
sightings) in VA over the last several months. Its
seems they had some sort of conference with dan
gordon complaining about lack of big media
coverage. ga
(Ted) Anyone else see the CNN coverage also DBC when was
it on today? GA
(DBC) yes, just about an hour ago.ga
(Ted) It seems, that Dan Gordon could supply Drax with
fodder for his JFORUM controversy. GA
(DRAX) I mentioned the Wytheville thing in the original
message on JFORUM. You saw the reaction. "Ho-hum."
GA
(Ted) Yes, perhaps now you could get some support. ga
(DRAX) Care to place a wager? Ha!
(MJ-C) Hi,could everyone identify himself/herself, so we
can know to whom we are talking. The list of
users is not of much help. Thanks.
(Dale) hahahaha, I tried that Marge. No you can't
(Ted) Ok, one more time... I'm Ted Markley. Others GA
(DRAX) Jim Speiser
(Joe) Joe Reichardt
(DON) Don Ecker
(Gerry) There is a directory function where people have
left short descriptions of themselves.
(Gerry) I'm Gerry Zeitlin
(Ted) Ok, I guess thats all that care to reveal. Marge
if you would hit a CR after about 60 characters or
so you don't go off the screen. GA
(DRAX) Yes, but its optional, and sometimes doesnt match
with CO handles. GA
(Gerry) Can it be searched for user id?
(DRAX) Yes
(MJ-C) ?Thanks! I appreciate it. How do I get to the
directory function?
(Ted) Marge, In the main menu there is a member
directory entry try that GA.
(Ted) There have been some new developments last week
one or two DRAX has up loaded also I have heard
rumors that Gulf Breezes is falling under
question. Any comments? GA
(MJ-C) Yes, I remembered ALT-S. Both Bob Boyd and Dr.
Willy Smith have some doubts about Gulf Breeze
case now Bob Boyd has compiled a 19-pt. letter
stating his problems with the case. Dan Wright
has a copy. Bruce Maccabee is analyzing film from
there and will speak on the photoanalysis at MUFON
Symposium in Nebraska. Gulf Breeze witnesses will
be at Neb. Am I doing this correctly or should I
wait to be recognized to type message?
(Ted) Ok, just a reminder to those new to our CO. We
operate under formal rules. If you want to ask a
question or make a comment type a "?" or a "!" and
I will take down you name and put you in queue.
(DRAX) OK, Ted. Just wanted to ask if CNN had anything on
Gulf Breeze, and also Marge, you might want to
quickly identify those names for people who are
unfamiliar to the field (but do it in queue so as
not to confuse people). GA
(DON) Ok, a quick one, is there anyway to get a copy, of
the local Fla. broadcast of the Gulf Breeze news
tape? ga
(Ted) Can any one answer That? GA
(DRAX) John Lear was sent a copy FedEx, I can ask him how
he got it. GA
(Ted) Good. Do that GA
(DON) I tried to call Lear, no answer is he out flying?
ga
(Ted) Drax can you comment? I've gotten busy also. GA
(DRAX) He may be. Try later. GA
(DON) thanks..
(Ted) Marge perhaps you could fill us in on some of the
names you dropped earlier. GA
(MJ-C) Dan Wright is MUFON's Dir. of Investigations; Dr.
Willy Smith is a physicist in Florida and he runs
a computer program called UNICAT with the most
credible cases. Bruce Maccabee is an optical
physicist whose specialty is photoanalysis. Hope
this helps to fill you in on names I mentioned.
(Dale) Can anyone supply me with some paperwork on the
proper way to handle an F.O.I.A. request??
(DRAX) Dale, do you get the International UFO Reporter
from CUFOS? There was an article by Don Schmitt, I
believe, which went through the groundrules. I can
send it to you if you want. GA
(Dale) OH. I must have it around here, but missed the
article will let you know. Thanks. GA
(MJ-C) I Suggest that you contact Barry Greenwood of
CAUS,(MJ-C) at Mass MUFON,. P.O. Box 176,
Stoneham, MA 02180
(Ted) Marge, can you tell us a little about UNICAT ?GA
(MJ-C) I am not exactly certain of the status of UNICAT
at present time. at one time it had 400 cases,
and Willy Smith had a form with criteria and
information he required for listing a case there./
If you'd like I can furnish his address., but
would prefer to mail it to you rather than to put
it on computer.
(MJ-C) Ted, I got your EMail. thanks! I put a notice in
this month's MUFON Newsletter asking for persons
with modems to join in this ISSUES forum on
Sundays.
(Dale) Thanks Marge.ga
(Ted) Great, I think there would be a lot of mutual
benefit to ISSUES and MUFON to cooperate. OkGA
(MJ-C) Are you aware of the recent letter sent by Richard
Doty to Barry Greenwood of CAUS in which he
reverses his stand on the Kirtland AFB sightings
from OSI document, 1980? ga
(Ted) No, Tell us more. GA
(MJ-C) Doty authored the documents which detail 5
overflights of UFOs (disc-shaped in one case) over
Manzano Weapons Storage Area at Kirtland AFB in
summer of 1980/ He also met with Peter Gersten
(NY attorney of CAUS) and Linda Howe at that time
and told them more about the sightings. He now is
denying that he said the things they claim that he
said, and cites official AF policy, and asks that
no one contact him again. The letter will be
published in the next issue of JUST CAUS (CAUS=
citizens against UFO Secrecy).
(DON) Ok Drax, two questions for you. First is there any
more information on the Texarkana case, and the
most recent msgs that you sent to our board in
Boise concerned Gulf Breeze and two agents of some
kind bearing a warrant to seize info. Ok, do you
or anyone know who they were, and what kind of
warrant was it, and issued by whom? Fed, local
etc. and were they genuine? ga
(DRAX) OK, On Texarkana, no new information that I've
gotten, except a possible correlation with another
case just being reported by Washington State MUFON
(Don Johnson), a pilot reported seeing a "box-
shaped" UFO near Edwards AFB. Some of the Tex
witnesses reported a similar sounding craft. As to
the warrants, I only mentioned that the main
witness reported having two guys in civvies come
to his door and wave a "Material Seizure Warrant"
at him to confiscate the photos and camera. He did
not turn them over. I know nothing beyond that.
Don;t know if it or they were genuine or not. GA
(DON) Ok, in some corners this has the appearance of a
classic beginning of possible "MIB" interference.
do you know if there were any other attempts to
gather info, or breakins, etc, and was the witness
threatened? Did he report to the local law
enforcement? ga
(DRAX) Alas, Don, you're asking for details I'm just not
privy to. This whole schmear is unfolding as we
speak, and its hard to get a handle on just what
is happening or has happened, especially since
most of what we have heard on this side of the
country is second or third hand. The details are
going to spill out, they will just take some time.
GA
(Dale) I'd like to switch topics a second. Marge, has
MUFFON, in Texas, had any problems over the JMP
letter stating that people would write to Andrus?
And, received any letters? on this hoax document.
ga
(MJ-C) Gulf Breeze newspaper reports two uniformed AF
investigators visited one of the anonymous
photographers and demanded the photographs. He did
not have them to turn over. No, M<UFON in Texas
has not had any problems that I know of over the
JMP letter, but Walt Andrus is putting a notice in
the Journal stating that MUFON is not in any way
involved with that group, nor will we accept any
mail for them. Speaking of MIBs, MIchigan MUFON is
reporting several incidents involving some sort of
surveillance, including black unmarked helicopters
over homes of witnesses; investigators' mail being
sloppily opened and resealed with scotch tape and
telephones being tapped. Dan Wright has put a
note of warning to all State Directors in his
latest newslett er to indicate if they have
sealed and reopened letters. Is Big Brother
Watching, or are we just getting paranoid? ga
(DBC) Marge, what part of MI are these things happening?
I'm in MI and have heard nothing. I have, however,
waking in the night a few times by what sounded
like a helicopter. (Prob. no connection>) ga
(MJ-C) They are mostly in the Lansing area and in
Flushing.) ga
(Dale) I was just wondering if everyone knew that if you
make a phone call and it is done through the
satellite, that the NSA makes transcripts and then
goes through it for buzz words.ga
(DRAX) They must be having a field day with THIS
conversation, then!
(DON) does ma bell know?
(Ted) Yes. I have heard that also. So you better watch
out, you better not try. GA
(Gerry) Also have some thoughts about this buzzword
monitoring. I'm sure they do it, but I also know
the technology for speech recognition is still
pretty primitive except perhaps at NSA but
actually it is difficult for machines to recognize
words unless they are trained to recognize them
when spoken by specific speakers.ga
(DRAX) Its my understanding that the NSA is about five
years ahead of the rest of the world in computer
technology also, my gosh, the Sharper Image offers
telephones with speech recognition capabilities,
that don't require training! GA
(MJ-C) I have been told about the NSA monitoring phone
calls by satellite. Someone from A T & T told me
that. Also, all overseas calls are recorded by
NSA. I also have reports of strange happenings on
calls to Indiana from Michigan. ga
(Ted) What kind of happenings? GA
(MJ-C) Michigan investigators called Indiana from a home
of a friend and got the same phone interference he
got when calling that investigator at his Michigan
home from the caller's Michigan home. ga
(Gerry) Have to agree with the replies to my comment. I
guess I should have thought it through more
carefully.ga
(DON) Ok, this phone interference phenomena is an old
story in ufology, it go's back over 30 years, and
Keel addressed it in several of his books rather
well. So it would appear that whoever is doing it
has had the tech. for quite a while. ga
(Dale) I was just going to say that I don't think that
there is anyone here who hasn't had to send
something 2 to 3 times in the mail for it to get
where it was suppose to go and has anybody that
you know of ever filed with NSA for FOIA request
on whether they had a file with your name on it,
or are they exempt, since we don't even know what
their charter says. ga
(Dale) NSA = National Security Agency
(Ted) I don't think you apply to the NSA for FOIA
information.
(DRAX) Just wanted to know if anyone had any thoughts on
APRO finally calling it quits. Did you know about
that, Marge? GA
(Ted) I think it is a shame. Someone should pick up the
ball (torch) and carry it on. I nominate DRAX!!!!
GA
(DRAX) I will not seek, nor will I accept........GA
(Dale) Jim, When did this happen? Can I keep my ID card
(New Director of APRO) and it is scarry to think
that there is only 1 real civilian organization
left.ga
(DRAX) According to Tom Mickus of ParaNet Pi in Toronto a
letter was sent out by an APRO underling whose
name escapes me saying that Coral is just in such
poor shape that she cannot continue publishing,
and the membership is dwindling steadily. The
letter ended "Goodbye for APRO." Sad, after 36
years. GA
(Dale) By civilian, I meant that MUFON, I believe is the
only organ that allows a low life like me to bee a
State Section Director I don't believe CUFO's does
this.ga
(MJ-C) NSA is not exempt under the FOIA. We have NSA
documents. I didn't know about APRO. Sad! Jim,
should we go to ask Coral to donate the files to
the U of A? I doubt if she would let MUFON have
them, but there must be a wealth of case info.
there.
(Ted) Perhaps Phil Klass would like the files eh? GA
(MJ-C) Also, DRAX, did you know that John Timmerman is
going to be in Phoenix on May 14 with the CUFOS
photo exhibit? ga
(DRAX) Yes, Dale called and told me GA
(DRAX) I didn't know the photo exhibit would be there
too, though I think we would have to pry the files
from Coral's cold fingers. But t'would be nice to
give them to U of A (or maybe Barry? Ha!) GA
(Ted) I was only joking about Phil Kl Ass. GA
(Dale) I like your spelling Ted
(DRAX) I HOPE so! Ha!
(MJ-C) I am going to have to leave you guys to go to an
MJ-? meeting. Is ther3e anything else I can
answer for you? Sorry to have to call it quits.
Duty calls. ga
(Dale) I can't believe I spent $18.95 for Kl ass's new
book of which most is old stuff...who profits from
UFO's? the Pro's or the anti's? I measured the
book its less than an inch thick.ga
(Ted) Marge, I hope you will Log on soon and pick up you
email. I wish you a Good Evening. Nite MArge! GA
(DRAX) APRO underling = Robert G. Marsland. Night Marge
(MJ-C) I will, and in June, we are going to have several
prominent UFOlogists here, incl. Mike Swords,
Barry Greenwood, Walt Webb, Budd Hopkins, and so
we will arrange to log on that Sunday and have a
great conference. Nite all! ga
(DRAX) <Ahem>
(Ted) Nite marge. <GO DRAX>
(DBC) nite marge
(Dale) Geraldo Drax Rivera?
(DRAX) No, just kidding.
(DRAX) I gotta go too. Bowling time. See y'all!
(Ted) Hookem good Drax! GA
(DRAX) /OUTTAHERE
(Ted) <drax has a chic waiting I'll Bet> GA
(Dale) Bowling, not Balling.
(DBC) This is probably totally coincidental but I
noticed on the last couple of COs there have been
2 to 3 users (SIG, monitoring? or handles) showing
a node DCE which is Arlington VA...Isn't that CIA
headquarters and where is NSA?ga
(Ted) AH HA. The SOURCE is located in Arlington VA,
Those Thieves!!!! <ga don>
(DON) Ok, I've read from dl last year on one co. that
Phil Kl ass had his "people monitor this ch. so if
various reports are correct that our govt. takes
this subj. seriously, do you really think that
they would not have a vested interest in
monitoring this forum. no, I didn't think so. I
guess it really is past 1984, eh?? ga
(Gerry) NSA is at Ft. Meade, MD. You have to assume that
this conference is in the open. But why get
paranoid about it?. Anyway, NSA is very large and
I would expect there to be interested folks there
just as anywhere else.ga
(Ted) Ok. You know anyone of us might be associated with
NSA. Perhaps... But no! GA
(Dale) If you want to know about the NSA, read "The
Puzzle Palace" by John Bamford...Also, Klass does
have spies in the wings they send all my local
stuff to Klass from Free-Net in Cleveland lastly,
my sister in law worked for NSA, and they have
orders after they are out to report anyone that
tries to talk to them about their activities up to
5 years after separation.ga
(Ted) Ok. Mike welcome. Just a reminder to those new to
our CO. We operate under formal rules. If you
want to ask a question or make a comment type a
"?" or a "!" and I will take down you name and put
you in queue.
(DBC) speaking of sensitive issues, anyone know anything
new about the ontario triangle? Did Neil P get
scared off by someone loading last week's CO in
DL10? Ted did you speak to him by phone? also has
anyone found the map????!!!!ga
(Ted) Ok. Yes I spoke to Neil Yesterday. HE said he.
could not be with us tonight but would be back
nest week. I asked Neil to prepare a White Paper
similar to the one prepared by John Lear. I asked
that he be sure to include VERIFIABLE facts such
that we may investigate and be prepared to ask
more meanful questions.GA
(DON) Earlier we were talking about paranoia in the
connection with the govet or NSA. it is not a case
of paranoia, but everyone should be aware that the
govt takes these cases much more seriously than
they let on. ga
(Randy P) Yes...I reviewed Publications of the U. S.
Geological Survey, 1971-1981, and cannot locate
any citations which would relate to Neil Palumbo's
case. I have not done a full DIALOG search but
did establish that an Aerogmagnetic Map of
Westernmost New York is contained in the USG (open
file) OF 75-0028, and an in depth seismic survey
consisting of high-resolution seismic reflection
profiles and sediment samples from Western Lake
Ontario is contained in OF 80-0550. I cannot find
any evidence which would corroborate Neil's
claims, however. I will mention that the classic
book in this area is Ivan Sanderson's Invisible
Residents, which mentions sightings like Neil's in
the same area. ga...
(Ted) Thanks Randy. That was a nice piece of
investigative work. I hope you can return next
week when (if) Neil returns.
(Randy P) I have an upload which goes into further depth
which I will put up later...ga
(Ted) Mike did you want to make a comment? GA
(MIKE) Not aware of all you're talking about
(Ted) Mike - ok, just sit back and listen (read) we're
talking about UFOs and related issues. <ga>
(Gerry) Ok. I spoke to a friend at Ames who suggested
that the area would be better covered by LANDSAT,
not SEASAT and that NASA was forced to divest of
the distribution of these photos but that if I
would tell her the coordinates and times needed,
she would tell me which photos to get and how to
get them. I sent email to Neil about this but he
did not reply.ga
(Ted) Neil doesn't get on too often. BTW did you all
know that you can see who has been in the ISSUES
forum (or any other for that matter) by typing "u"
at most "!" prompts? <GA>
(Randy P) Thanks...anyone can obtain the satellite
images...I have an upload which goes into some
depth on how to get these, including the reference
numbers for all the LANDSAT catalogs for use in
any university library which is a Congressionally
designated Government Depository Library. From
Neil's description, I believe he has a LANDSAT
image (originally ERTS). In order to validate the
in water image he believes he is seeing, it would
be necessary to look at several loops from the
bird...each locale in the U. S. is imaged once
every 18 hours in four spectral bands. ga...
(Ted) Please upload you're file into the DL10 Database.
GA
(Gerry) I'm not surprised to hear how available these
images are. Actually I was wondering exactly what
I had volunteered to do. Decided it was just to
open a dialog with an interested person at Ames.
And I did get a suggestion as to a non-paranormal
explanation. Mind you I'm not by nature a
"debunker" in the worst sense of the term. But I
was told that zooplancton could be responsible for
what Neil saw. They form quite large formations
and local currents can make them be repeatable
over long periods of time. ga
(Randy P) I don't doubt that Neil has seen strange things
entering and leaving the lake...as this is well
documented and has been going on up there for
several years. However, I doubt that he is seeing
a structure in the satellite image. Normally,
perfectly clear water would appear black in the
false colored composite image made from the four
spectral images. One needs to view the black-and-
white individual shots from each spectral band.
ga...
(Ted) When I spoke to Neil I asked him if perhaps he was
seeing planes disappearing in the horizon at
night. He said he didn't believe that was so.
Then I ask how BIG were these things (expecting to
get points of light) he said "about the size of a
quarter at arms length." FOr what its worth that
is it. he also claims top be using "color" IR
Kodak film. Now I don't know too much about IR
film but IR is just another wavelenght as are
colors. (Unless there is some Pseudo colorization
technique. ANy comments? GA
(Randy P) He may be using color film with an IR filter...but
the size he describes for the lights he is seeing
doesn't agree with some of the sightings over the
Great Lakes which Sanderson, et. al. have
documented over the years. I am fairly familar
with photoimagery, and have never heard of a color
IR film. ga
(Ted) Neil claims that the film he is using is KODAK IR
35 mm film. (Not color film with an IR filter.)
We use IR film in some of the products that are
manufactured at my company. (We use an IR laser
diode) I have asked our chemist/film people to
contact Kodak for more info....
(Ted) By the way, I hope all of you have, or get, the
opportunity to read. my message board on
"QUESTIONNAIRE" it is suggesting a "brain trust"
if you will of ISSUES members. GA
(DON) Ivan Sanderson, and the book he wrote "Invisible
Residents?" I am not familar with it, could you
discuss what the subject covers? ga
(Randy P) The book Invisible Residents is by a fairly
legitimate scientific type (Ivan Sanderson), so
should be available in many libraries. It is
probably the classic work on sightings of unusual
"vehicles" entering and leaving bodies of water.
The book also covers many other types of sightings
of "balls of light", dissappearance of crews of
ships, and other odd happenings over water. I
believe it was the first place where I saw any
theories of "vortices", and its chapters 10 and 11
are a classic reference on this subject as well.
I recommend it to anyone interested in getting
some background on what Neil Palumbo is talking
about. I'm going to have to check out in a
while, but will do the upload later.
thanks....ga...
(DON) Ok, and thank you randy.
(Ted) Randy, thanks for coming by tonight. we all
enjoyed the data and interpretations of same that
you have provided see you next week and (I hope)
on the message board. Nit Randy! GA
(Randy P) nite...
(Joe) bye, Randy
(Dale) Bye Randy. As a side note, if anyone is looking
for books, etc. and I know it is difficult. I
have over 1000 books and about 6000 newsletters
and magazines. If you have a request for a book or
copies of material leave me mail.ga
(Ted) Thanks dale that is mighty generous of you. We
will all be wanting library cards to the Wedge
Foundation. GA
(Gerry) I know it's getting late but I did wonder if
anyone had read the file on "1st Earth Battalion"
which is in the veterans' forum and if anyone has
any thoughts about it.ga
(Ted) Gerry. Which dl is it in and what is th eactual
name of the forum? ga
(DON) Vetsig
(Gerry) standby and I'll ... right, vetsig ... but
standby... it's vetsig/dl7/earth.1st and it refers
to a unit of "warrior monks" of the US Army which
was trained in psychic warfare and which has just
been disbanded.ga
(DON) Where is John Lear when we need him?
(Ted) We'll) look it up.
(MIKE) Speaking of Lear. Has anybody heard of video
release to press yet ALA Lear.txt?
(Ted) No. Mike do you have reason to believe there is
one? GA
(MIKE) I thought he mentioned a tape to be released in
March?!
(Ted) Ok, he mentioned a tape that he had which was just
a collection of previously released stuff.) Also
he claimed that there would be a "Big
Announcement" soon but didn't get specific. GA
(Joe) Where can I get a list of BBS's that cover UFO
material? GA
(Ted) Ok, I can't give you a list but a good bet is to
get a list of PARANET BBS. Jim SPeiser (DRAX) is
the chief honcho of ParaNet. ANd it is based in
Pheonix. Send me EMAIL and I'll give you some info
on it. GA
(Joe) Thank, will do. ga
(Dale) I forgot...oh yees... I think Lear was talking
about the Moore release...by the way on WBZ 1030
AM, right now, they are talking about the
Whytheville incident. they are trying to get the
people on the line. ga
(Ted) Let'm call us!!! <DON you're next GA>
(DON) Ok, I was going to refer Joe to Jim's Paranet bbs,
but you beat me to it however I do have a list
here, called the Pagan bbs. ga
(Ted) Ok, Don give it to us!!! GA
(Ted) WAIT!!! Better yet why don't you send it to me
EMAIL and I'll get it into the DL10. GA
(DON) Sure, my pleasure!!
(Joe) Thanks Don. ga
(Ted) Ok..
(Ted) I was going to say earlier that sometime in May
there will be new forum software and when that
occurs we will have our own Conference room for
use during non-Sunday times. Just for us Guys
(and Gals). To try out the new software type GO
PRACTICE at any "!" prompt.
(Dale) Hope your listening to 1030 they are calling. No
answer
(Ted) 1030 doesn't make it to NJ sorry GA
(DON) Idaho either!
(Dale) Crip...It's Boston....and I'm in Cleveland.
(Ted) Dale, who is calling? GA
(Dale) Don't know his name...have to listen but the
number is 617-254-5678
(Ted) My phone is busy right now! GA
(Dale) Call him later Ted, he'll be on a couple hours.
(DON) Well since I can't get that station. I've been
wondering for months. DBC in ANN, what does DBC
stand for, and where is ANN? grin ga
(Ted) DBC stands for Don't Be Curious! GA
(DBC) Don, it stands for DB Closet-UFO-enthusiast.ga
(DBC) will let you know by Email.ga
(DON) Ah, now we know. who Phil's contact is!!!! GRIN
(Ted) Folks. It is getting late and I'm am going to have
to check out <need to prepare my NSA report to
Phil Kl ass> GA
(Dale) Ted, call that number 617-254-5678 and go over the
sighting will record and send it to you. ga
(Ted) Sorry dale I missed that? GA
(Dale) I said...call 617-254-56788. I'll tape it and send
it to you.ga
(Ted) What will I hear? Or will I be on a Boston talk
show? GA
(Dale) Yes...You'll be on WBZ-radio 1030 AM and be on a
Boston talk show. he just mentioned Don Gordon,
but the station must not be answering after
hours.ga
(Ted) Ok I'll give it a try. (but only for a couple of
minutes.) Nite all ....
